Huddlers in the News

“Our CFO is asking for the ROI for each new marketing hire,” shared an inquisitive 3X CMO from a SaaS startup. “This is a new one for me, and I’d welcome your formulas,” the CMO added. After my knee-jerk outrage, I had questions.

Can the ROI of Every Employee Be Calculated?

In theory, yes. You can create a formula that guestimates the impact that employee’s role will have on pipeline generation, close rates, retention rates, employee recruitment yield, and efficiencies gained by having a lower-cost employee do the work (versus the CMO). The formula looks like this: (Revenue impact + efficiency savings - employee cost) / by (employee cost) x 100.

Is It Really That Simple?

Of course not. Let’s say that the new employee is a content creator. And that content plays a number of roles in the acquisition process. For example, the content could result in an increase in organic website traffic, some of which become sales-qualified opportunities. If you have sophisticated attribution tracking, perhaps you can credit some portion of the projected value of that SQL to that content. Perhaps.

But this is only part of the value of this employee. What if they come up with the insight that drives an entire campaign that yields 5x ROI? How much do you apportion to that employee versus the entire team? How do you put value on a great collaborator who inspires others to do their best work? What if they understand the customer and market so well they contribute to a product innovation?

Where does “opportunity cost” fit into this calculation? In other words, what if you don’t make this hire and the competition kicks your butt with their content? And what about lifetime value? Won't a good employee create more value over time? Yeah, it’s feeling more absurd by the second.

So, Is This an Absurd Request by the CFO?

My first reaction was, “This is insanity.” How can CMOs possibly calculate the ROI for every employee in their department when they can barely calculate the ROI of their entire marketing budget? The CMOs in this Huddle were less chagrined than I and offered helpful suggestions on how to reply to this CFO. Their advice came down to speaking the language of the CFO. I’ll explain.

Learn to Speak “Spreadsheet”

CFOs live in spreadsheets. As Peter Finter, CMO of KX, shared on a recent episode of CMO Huddles Studio, “You need to know CFOs love language–spreadsheets.” “Show them how marketing will impact revenue on a predictable basis, and you're speaking their language,” he added. Admittedly, this doesn’t address the ROI per employee question, but it does provide an important place to start.

Every CMO needs to have a spreadsheet that projects marketing’s contribution to the business.

Final Thought

Whether or not you can precisely calculate the ROI for each employee, it is not a useless exercise. It will force you to consider where and how your department is making the greatest impact and allocate your investments accordingly.

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 426: B2B Marketing Strategy: 2025 Edition

What’s on the horizon for B2B marketing in 2025? In this episode, guest host Jamie Gier steps in for Drew Neisser to explore where top CMOs are placing their bets for the future. Joined by Charles Groome of Biz2Credit, Tom Bianchi of Acquia, and Josh Leatherman of Service Express, this conversation dives deep into the strategies, tools, and tactics poised to drive success in the coming year.

In this episode:

• Charles Groome shares his top three bets for 2025, including brand-led events, cross-channel marketing, and influencer strategies tailored to niche audiences.
  

• Tom Bianchi reveals how Acquia is aligning new product launches with focused segmentation and ABM tactics to optimize marketing ROI.
  

• Josh Leatherman explores how marketers can leverage AI to enhance analytics, drive predictability, and sharpen account-based sales and marketing strategies.
  

The group also explores the results from a 5-part poll series:

• 40% of marketers expect budget increases in 2025.
• Events are regaining their place as a top investment area, beating out online marketing.
• Demand generation continues to dominate, with 51% prioritizing it over brand building.
• Clarity and collaboration emerged as the most critical skills for marketing teams in 2025.
  
• Owned content and SEO are expected to deliver the highest ROI next year.
  

Tune in to hear how these marketing leaders are preparing for the challenges and opportunities of the year ahead—and take away actionable insights for your own 2025 planning.

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“Marketing is way too important to report to the CRO” espoused an experienced startup CEO. While B2B CMOs universally agree with this sentiment, I had lots of questions, especially since more senior marketers are being asked to report to someone other than the CEO. It’s an issue worth diving into.

Is Marketing Too Important to Report to the CRO?

It should be. The CEO, who made this statement, is Sion Lewis of UK-based Ciphr. Here is his rationale, “I think it is common in the UK for the CMO to work for the CRO which is what I inherited. The problem with that is CROs don't understand marketing, therefore it absolutely becomes a demand gen story. Where are my MQLs and SQL? What's the conversion rate? By the way, all of that is super important, and we talk about it every freaking day, but it's just table stakes, not the interesting stuff. Quite frankly, I treat it as tech. So that is why I took it out of the revenue leader and created a CMO function.”

Is It Really a CMO Role if It Reports to the CRO?

No, it’s not. At best it’s a VP of Marketing role. Most likely, it becomes a VP of DemandGen role that operates as a sales support function. More importantly, the CMO is unlikely to get regular face time with the CEO or have a peer-to-peer relationship with product, human resources, and customer success. Marketing doesn’t have a seat at the executive table. And all of this means that marketing isn’t influencing the overall go-to-market strategy.

Does It Matter if the CRO Came Up Through Marketing?

It could. With caveats. If the CRO was an effective marketing leader in an earlier life, then perhaps they can appreciate marketing’s broader impact on sales (a reputation that opens doors and closes deals faster, motivates employees, builds advocacy, etc.). The rubber meets the road when that CRO is allocating resources. Do they hire another salesperson when incremental funds become available or at least consider what would happen if those funds went into marketing?

Should CMOs Accept a CMO Role That Reports to the CRO? 

It depends. Have you been out of work for 6 months or more? If yes, give it strong consideration, especially if you like the culture, the CEO, and the category. It’s quite possible you could wait it out until either the CRO gets fired, moved or realizes you should report to someone else. This does happen. Especially if your CRO allows you direct access to the CEO and other C-Suite members along the way. And while you’re biding your time, think and act like an Impact Player (FYI, author Liz Wiseman will be speaking at the Super Huddle).

Should a CMO Who Is Between Opportunities Interview for a CMO Role That Reports to the CRO?

Absolutely. With all the energy you can muster. Why? First, it’s always good to hone your interviewing skills, and doing it well will boost your confidence. You may learn that you really like the opportunity and they may really like you. If it is a good cultural match, you might be able to negotiate a change in the reporting structure OR set a time limit of say, six months. Even if you don’t take the job or get an offer, you’ll make some friends who will want to work with you at their next stop. Assuming you keep up with your network.

Have another take on this?

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 425: Unlocking Marketing Attribution

Attribution is one of the toughest challenges for modern marketers—how do you measure what truly drives revenue in a complex, multi-touch journey? In this episode, Drew Neisser sits down with Taran Nandha, Founder and CEO of Growth Natives and DiGGrowth, to unpack the intricacies of marketing attribution and analytics.

In this episode:

• Taran identifies the top mistakes marketers make with attribution, from relying on vanity metrics to overlooking offline touchpoints.
• He explains the importance of aligning people, processes, and tools to build an effective attribution system that delivers insights aligned with business objectives.
• Learn how to move beyond first-touch and last-touch models by embracing multi-touch attribution and account-based analytics for a more complete picture of customer journeys.
  

You’ll also discover:

• How to connect and normalize data across platforms like CRMs, marketing automation tools, and ad channels.
• Practical tips on using cohorts and journey mapping to track ROI for events and campaigns over time.
  
• The role of AI in making sense of data and optimizing your marketing strategy.
  

Whether you’re new to attribution or looking to refine your approach, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you prove the value of your marketing efforts and drive better business outcomes.  

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

"Here comes the marketing person, they always want to do too much, too fast,” echoed a CMO from a multi-billion dollar software company. Offered as a warning for other CMOs when seeking to collaborate with their peers, my mind was spinning on the real issues here.

Of Course, CMOs Want to Get a Lot Done Quickly

The clock is ticking even before they start. That’s why many B2B CMOs have to present a 30/60/90-day plan just to secure a job. Inherent in this frequent (and annoying) request is an expectation of having an immediate impact. If CMOs were being asked for a 3-year plan, then their push for quick impact could and would happily shift. But I don’t see that happening, do you?

CEOs Expect CMOs to Be Instant Miracle Workers

I’ve written about this before but it’s worth revisiting in this context. The biggest mismatch in expectations between the CMO and the CEO is the time frame for meaningful impact. CEOs, particularly at PE/VC-backed companies, think in terms of quarterly not annual impact. This is so misguided as to almost be laughable. Reputations are built impression by impression, experience by experience, quarter after quarter. Sure, one brand, Chat GPT, reached 100 million users in 2 months. It was revolutionary. And free. Name another.

But What About the Fail-Fast Mentality Prescribed by Zuckerberg and Bezos?

Let’s separate tactics from strategy. Getting your overall business strategy right takes time. It’s not a marketing problem. It’s a company problem. Sure the CMO can help drive strategy, bringing together product, sales, customer service, finance, research, and HR to unite around a single vision. Great business strategies are enduring and require solid foundations. Weak strategies are disposable. If you want to fail fast and forever, go with the latter.

Speaking of Bezos, I’m currently listening to “Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and the Washington Post” by former Post editor Martin Baron. I’ve particularly enjoyed the parts on Bezos and how he approached transforming an old media stalwart into a digital-first publication. Before he started brainstorming on “fast fail” tactics, he worked with the executive team to define the vision. Notably, Bezos insisted on putting the customer (i.e. the reader, not the advertiser) at the center of the transformation. For several years after, the publication enjoyed extraordinary growth against a singular purpose - engage readers.

Great Strategies Drive Better Experiments

Ultimately, the goal is not to fail fast. The goal is to succeed fast. Doing that is much easier if you're working from a strong strategic foundation. There are always things to test. And no shortage of ideas. What CMOs need are filters to help sort the possible from the probable, the deluting from the additive. For example, if you’re putting the customer at the center of your brand, then simply asking, “Is this initiative good for our customer?” will filter out a lot of testable ideas.

Are You Trying to Do Too Much?

They surest way to fail in any job is to try to do too much at any even given time. For CMOs, the “peanut butter” effect is always a risk. Too many targets, too many campaigns, too many tech initiatives, too many product launches, and or too many events can assure minimal impact and maximum burnout. Too many priorities mean no priorities.

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 424: Marketing as a Business Driver

What does it take to turn marketing into a true driver of business success? In this episode, Drew dives deep into this question with three expert CMOs—Shirley Macbeth of Forrester, Dan Lowden of Blackbird.ai, and Ali McCarthy of Amplify Your Voice Studio—who reveal how they keep marketing aligned with business objectives while pushing the boundaries of creativity and strategy.

In this episode:

• Shirley Macbeth explains how Forrester’s “Plan on a Page” framework keeps marketing focused on top business objectives and the importance of prioritization in achieving meaningful results.
  

• Dan Lowden shares his proven “Marketing Playbook” that drives brand and revenue impact, detailing the role of compelling content in engaging target audiences and supporting sales.
  

• Ali McCarthy discusses the importance of a clear growth plan to align marketing with financial goals and maintain focus across the entire team.
  

You’ll also learn:

• How to prioritize effectively in a resource-constrained environment
• Ways to foster creativity within the structure of a strategic plan
• The role of AI in scaling personalized content and enhancing team productivity

Tune in to discover actionable insights on aligning marketing with business goals and making a measurable impact on revenue.

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“Your role, if you do it well, should be the deputy CEO,” suggested Sion Lewis, CEO of Ciphr, a UK-based software start-up. The CMOs at our London Lunch Huddle jotted this down with trepidation. Their self-examination was instantaneous. I had questions. Many questions.

Does this only apply to CMOs at start-ups?

Sion's directive is particularly relevant to start-up CMOs. If you aren’t helping to drive strategy, you’re relegated to marketing tactician. As a former CMO (currently CEO of Boardwave) Phill Robinson put it, "One of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen CMOs make is not getting involved early in the strategic planning process. If you don’t have a seat at the table from the beginning, you’ll end up executing someone else’s vision."

Should all B2B CMOs aspire to be the unofficial deputy CEO?

Yes. I’m not suggesting this will be easy for CMOs, particularly at big companies with a C-Suite stocked with a CEO, COO, Chief-of-Staff, CHRO, CTO, and Chief Product Officer. But it’s definitely worth a shot. Explained Amanda Jobbins, currently the CMO of Vodafone Business, "To make an impact, the CMO must be in sync with the CEO's vision. It’s not just about reporting to them; it’s about co-creating the company's direction."

Can a CMO be successful but not be the unofficial deputy CEO?

Maybe. Let’s take a scenario in which the CEO has a chief strategist who is solely focused on the long-term direction of the company. In that case, the CMO must befriend the strategist and create a strong working relationship. This can be done by knowing more about the customer than anyone else in the organization. That requires regular conversations with customers, ongoing market research, setting up and owning Customer Advisory Boards, building customer communities, and hopefully, being an executive sponsor of a few high-profile customers.

What CEO behavior suggests you’re on the path to being the unofficial deputy CEO?

It’s often a progression. First, the CEO asks you to write their speeches. Then, you're the CEO's first call before Board Meetings. Then you're presenting GTM plans to the board. Then the CEO asks you to run a non-marketing initiative. As Amanda Jobbins shared, "If you're only responsible for marketing, it’s easy to be sidelined. You need to take on cross-functional roles—like partnerships or business development—so you’re seen as a business leader, not just a marketer."

Is this the future of the CMO role?

If yes, it’s a bright one. You, the CMO, have a secure seat at the table. You “own” strategy. Your purview is broader than marketing. Your CEO depends on you for ongoing guidance and to help drive the business forward. Fellow C-suite members see you as a peer.

Getting there won’t be easy.

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 423: Unlocking PR-able B2B Research

What does it take to create B2B research that journalists can’t resist?

In this episode, Drew Neisser sits down with research experts Becky Lawlor of Redpoint Content and Curtis Sparrer of Bospar PR to reveal the secrets of crafting and pitching impactful studies that capture media attention.

In this episode:

• Becky Lawlor shares the top three mistakes to avoid in research design, emphasizing the importance of aligning with media trends, targeting the right audience, and writing effective survey questions.
• Curtis Sparrer highlights how to create “killer stats” that drive media coverage, and explains why a successful study must tell a story that resonates beyond niche audiences. 

You’ll also learn:

• Why it’s essential to conduct quality checks on survey audiences and design
• How to adapt your findings for multiple uses, from PR to lead generation
  
• Practical tips on “news-jacking” and tapping into timely topics for maximum impact
  

Tune in to discover how to make your research stand out, earn top-tier coverage, and turn valuable insights into brand-boosting press.

What You’ll Learn

• What B2B marketers get wrong about crafting research
• What B2B marketers get wrong about pitching research studies
• How to get your study picked up by journalists

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“What’s with the penguins?” asked an F1000 marketing leader new to CMO Huddles. Explaining that a group of penguins is called a huddle, I received a nod of appreciation and a “That’s it?” Door open. I spouted that CMOs and penguins have much in common and that we donate 1% of revenue to the Global Penguin Society.

“That’s cool but what you’re really doing is leading by example,” the CMO noted.

“What do you mean?” I asked.

“Most B2B marketing is bland as sand–yours isn’t,” they exclaimed.

Compliment accepted. We moved on to their differentiation challenges.

I was reminded of this conversation in a recent visit to Boulder Beach, home to a healthy huddle of South African penguins. Formerly known as “jackass penguins” because they make a braying sound, these delightful birds reinforced various points of comparison to CMOs.

Both are Bellwethers

Living on land and sea, penguins feel the harsh impact of environmental changes earlier than most species. As we saw in 2023, CMO role elimination was a harbinger of the slowing B2B economy. Thanks to recent protection efforts, the Boulder Beach colony is growing for the first time in decades. Perhaps the Feds recent rate cuts will do the same for B2B CMOs!

Both are Curious

Once the tourists leave, the penguins of Boulder Beach like to explore the nearby village, waddling into open doors of homes and shops. To survive and thrive, CMOs must never lose their curiosity. A rapidly changing business environment requires constant questioning and assumption dumping.

Both are Nurturers

Mama penguins are never far from their chicks on the beach. Similarly, great CMOs are only as good as the teams they nurture. While CMOs needn’t fish for their younger underlings like penguins, they do need to provide a safe environment for experimentation and the occasional misstep.

Both are Ingenious Problem-Solvers

South African penguins, like the other 17 other types, are famous for finding unusual places to nest. They constantly face and work around new challenges. Great CMOs are much the same. When the going gets tough, these CMOs innovate. They transform, finding unique places for their brands to flourish.

Both Like to Gather

I witnessed several instances of penguins having fun together. Four were diving around each other and emerged on the beach in unison. Couples waddled together and embraced.

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 422: The Focus Factor: Driving B2B Success

For CMOs, strategy is as much about what not to do as it is about what to focus on.

In this episode, we explore the transformative power of focus with three marketing leaders who have mastered the art of saying “no” to the nonessential.

Highlights include:

• JD Dillon shares how Tigo Energy’s “Green Glove Service” transformed customer service into a brand differentiator and rallied the entire organization around a simple, powerful concept.
  

• Laura Beaulieu discusses her approach at Holistiplan to amplify customer voices through webinars and referrals, focusing on building an influencer pipeline that converts loyal customers into brand advocates.
  

• Kevin Briody explains how Edmentum consolidated multiple websites to simplify the customer experience, reduce internal complexity, and drive more impactful marketing through a streamlined digital presence. (He’s now CMO of Meteor Education).
  

We also cover the challenges of prioritizing in a fast-paced environment, strategies for creating impactful marketing initiatives, and the delicate balance between agility and focus. Tune in to learn how to drive greater impact by doing fewer things exceptionally well—and find out how to keep both your team and your brand centered on what matters most.

What You’ll Learn

• How 3 CMOs are driving business-bending strategic initiatives
• How to maintain long-term focus and stay agile
• The importance of customer feedback

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/