Huddlers in the News

There should be a list of the luckiest CMOs in the world. It might be a short list. But it would celebrate the ones who work for CEOs who declare, “We’ve got to be different,” and then give the CMO the room to make it so. My remarkable conversation with one such CEO follows.

Drew: Have you spent time in marketing?

CEO: No. I came up through sales starting as a tech consultant, and eventually found myself in senior management. But having worked alongside some highly effective CMOs I came to appreciate their unique value.

Drew: What is that unique value?

CEO: I see the CMO as the Chief Strategy Officer too. They can figure out how to set us apart. To help us stand out. We’ve got to be different. Or we can't gain share in a crowded market.

Drew: Where does your CMO sit in the org?

CEO: When I arrived as CEO, the CMO reported to the CRO and I thought that was a mistake. When I brought in a new CMO, I insisted they report to me. It’s too important a role not to give them a seat at the table. And I don’t want them constrained by a CRO who doesn’t understand the power and role of marketing.

Drew: What are your expectations of your CMO?

CEO: When our new CMO started, I said MQLs, SQLs, and website traffic were table stakes. What we need from you is a strategy that will set us apart from our giant competitors. We need a distinct tone of voice, color, and story. And our product needs to be different.

Drew: It’s not a strategy if it doesn’t impact the product.

CEO: Exactly.

Drew: How much time did you give your CMO to develop the new strategy?

CEO: It took about 3 months. They needed to do their homework. Speak with customers and our tech team. Get to know the product as it was and where it needed to be to reinforce a new story. They also needed to understand the category and how our competitors were positioned.

Drew: How involved were you in the process?

CEO: I don’t like surprises so I asked the CMO to keep me informed. We had weekly 1:1s. But I didn’t want to constrain their thinking and creativity. So while I appreciated understanding the process I didn’t ask for details.

Drew: How did the strategy development process wrap up?

CEO: Really well. The CMO kept me informed, asked for input at critical junctures, and earned my trust. When they presented the new strategy, I was quite taken with it. I could see how it required us to adjust our story, content, and product.

Drew: How was the new story different from your old one?

CEO: It’s not about us. It’s about empowering our target. We don’t even talk about our software anymore.

Drew: Is it working?

CEO: Yes. We’re getting into companies we didn’t before and we’re growing faster than the category. It's also easier to recruit and retain employees. They can see how we're different and it makes them proud.

Drew: Your CMO is lucky to work for you.

CEO: You mean it's not this way everywhere?

Should you be on the "luckiest CMO" list? If yes, tell me about your CEO.

Written by Drew Neisser

“Pretend you’re a baker and have to explain everything, like how bread rises to a high schooler” shared a CMO from a $325mil software company. When I stopped laughing, I realized the serious genius in this spicy recommendation.

Rather than stew over the lack of understanding in the C-suite of how marketing works and what marketers do, I’ve jumped directly to the acceptance stage. There’s simply no time for denial, anger, bargaining, or depression. We knead an educational recipe for the C-suite, so why not bake this analogy to its fullest?

First, here’s a basic recap on how bread rises. Yeast, a tiny living organism, eats the sugar, producing gas, causing the dough to puff up like a balloon! An adolescent might relabel the fermentation process unforgettably as “yeast farts.” Stay with me.

Why B2B marketing is like making bread and yeast farts:

1. Ingredients Selection (Strategy Development): Just as you choose specific ingredients for the type of bread you want to make, in B2B marketing, you start by understanding your market, defining your target, and developing a strategy. "Flour" is your product, "water" your market research, and "yeast" your creative ideas. Get this combo wrong, and your strategy falls flat.
2. Mixing the Dough (Creating Campaigns): Once you have your ingredients, you mix them to form dough. In marketing, this is like creating campaigns—bringing together messaging, content, and channels. Your specific mix determines the overall consistency and effectiveness of your marketing efforts.
3. Fermentation (Building Brand Awareness + Engagement): In bread-making, yeast farts. In B2B marketing, this step is akin to brand awareness and engagement. As your campaign gains traction, customers become aware and engage with your brand. Warning: this stage smells suspicious in the boardroom!
4. Proofing (Nurturing Leads): After fermentation, bread dough is left to proof, allowing it to rise further. In marketing, this is like lead nurturing. You can’t rush bread breaking or efforts to close the sale. Instead, you let it develop, ensuring that prospects are fully engaged and ready. This stage is critical for converting interested prospects into loyal customers.
5. Baking (Closing the Sale): Finally, the dough goes into the oven and transforms into bread. In marketing, this is the sales process where leads convert into paying customers. The heat (or pressure) applied at this stage needs to be just right—too much, and the bread burns (you lose the sale); too little, and it stays undercooked (the sale doesn’t close).
6. Cooling and Serving (Customer Retention and Advocacy): After the bread is baked, it needs to cool. In marketing, this is where you focus on customer retention and turning satisfied customers into advocates. Ideally, this is when you make your customers hunger for more (renew, upsell, cross-sell) and generate referrals.

All analogies are imperfect. But this one is tasty. What’s your favorite marketing analogy?

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 419: Reimagine GenAI: Creative Applications Beyond Efficiency

What if AI could do more than save time—what if it could engage employees, excite customers, and inspire creativity? In this episode of Renegade Marketers Unite, Drew Neisser chats with the inventive Jenny Nicholson to uncover how B2B marketers can transform their approach using generative AI.

From reimagining decision-making to turning everyday tasks into playful, monster-slaying missions, Jenny shares innovative ways AI can spark creativity and boost engagement. Tune in to for real-world examples and insights on AI’s true promise—to build more human experiences and transform the way we work.

Key Takeaways:

• Unlock AI’s potential for creativity, not just efficiency
• Explore fresh ideas for team engagement and customer interaction 
• Why every marketer should experiment with AI to push boundaries

Perfect for B2B marketers looking to take their AI strategies to the next level!

What You’ll Learn

• Why GenAI use should focus on creativity (not efficiency)
• How to use AI to make mundane tasks more fun
• How GenAI can improve customer and employee experiences

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“Founders can be blinded by ambition” shared a CMO from a Series C start-up, “so occasionally you need to ground them with a ‘meanwhile on Reality Ranch’ response.” Marveling at this CMO’s chutzpah, my mind exploded with questions.

Reality Ranch: Grounding Ambitious Founders

The first question is, “Do ambitious founders need to visit Reality Ranch, and if so under what circumstances? Steve Jobs famously used a “reality distortion field” to bend the company, shareholders, and Apple products to his vision. That worked out well for shareholders though it didn’t make Jobs a model boss.

Legendary founder Ted Turner (CNN, Cartoon Network, TBS, TNT, etc.) knew he was on the right track the more “experts” told him he was delusional and a victim of “magical thinking.”

Successful founders are visionary. They have to be. Unfortunately, they are also rare.

The Ambition-Vision Confusion

Your more typical founder easily confuses ambition with vision. They also confuse ambition with leadership. Such was the case for our Reality Ranch-resident CMO. Their CEO had led the company to $50 million in ARR by personally driving product development and being the lead salesperson. They identified a niche, filled an unmet need, raised tons of VC funding, and then hit a wall. No amount of wishful thinking could help them cross the proverbial chasm.

This founder hadn’t built an enduring company. They launched a product.

The Challenge of Unrealistic Requests

Now back to our daring CMO. Was trying to ground this ambitious CEO in reality an effective play? It depends. In this case, it felt right because the CEO had just requested that the CMO increase the inbound pipeline by 30% while cutting the budget by an equal percentage. As I covered in an earlier post, CMOs are not miracle workers. No amount of distorted reality could fill the delta between the upward goal and the downward budget.

I asked former FBI hostage negotiator and bestselling author Chris Voss (Never Split the Difference), how he would respond to such a request from a CEO. His first suggestion was to say, “Do you want me to fail?” This reframes the CEO’s request as a fruitless exercise and connects the CEO with the undesired outcome. Visionary or not, most CEOs do not want their employees to fail.

Reframing for Success

Reframing challenging requests is a skill, that all leaders, especially CMOs need to hone. Voss talks about this at length in his book. He successfully stalled various kidnapper demands for large sums of money in 24 hours by asking, “How am I supposed to do that?” While the CMOs listening to Voss and my conversation admired this response, they didn’t think it would be effective with their CEO.

They imagined that conversation going down like this:

CMO responds to a crazy request from the CEO, with, “How am I supposed to do that?”

The CEO says, “That’s your problem, figure it out, or I’ll find someone who can.”

When times are tough, it can get ugly. Fast.

Finding the right words to move your CEO from an untenable position, isn’t easy. What words have you used to bring a boss back from the brink?

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 418: A CMO Guide to Moving Up Market

What does it take to move up market and start targeting the enterprise market? In this episode, host Drew Neisser is joined by Allyson Havener (SVP of Marketing at TrustRadius), Sheri Chin (CMO of Galileo Financial Technologies), and Jakki Geiger (most recently CMO of Hazelcast) to discuss how to navigate the strategic shift.

From aligning sales and marketing teams to crafting tailored messaging, these marketing leaders share real-world experiences on what works—and what doesn’t—when moving up market.

Key Discussion Points:

• How to identify when it’s time to move up market

• The internal shifts needed to target enterprise customers successfully

• Leveraging account-based marketing and targeted content for larger deals
• The importance of partnerships in breaking into the enterprise market
  
• How to balance retaining SMB customers while scaling to serve enterprise clients
  

Tune in to hear real-world strategies for taking your business to the next level by moving up market.

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“We’re not trying to teach salespeople French, we’re trying to get them to use a French accent,” shared a CMO from a $350mil software company. Explaining the metaphor, this CMO said, “Helping Sales understand the customer better is a nuanced exercise!”

Grab your passport, Marketing’s complicated relationship with Sales is an ever-challenging adventure.

When Sales Stumbles, CMOs Are in the Crosshairs

Let’s start with a pragmatic CMO. They know with absolute certainty that when Sales miss their revenue target, Marketing will be blamed. Anticipating this, they build a “demand-generation machine” that delivers the requisite number of qualified opportunities (SQO) per sales rep. In the CMO Huddles community, that average is roughly 5 SQOs per rep with the expectation that these reps would close deals at least 20% of the time.

Unfortunately, Sales reps on average are closing about 17% of the time these days. Yeah, I found that number hard to believe, too.

Our pragmatic CMO will spot these lower close rates and attempt to increase their coverage to 6 SQOs per rep. That’s a lot of "opportunities" to get into and squeeze through the pipeline. Especially with the same skimpy budget. And there’s this truth - if the CMO knew how to deliver more opportunities they would have done so earlier.

Fixing the Crisis of Low Close Rates

Enter our linguistic CMO. They start with the obvious, “Our close rates suck” and set about to help their partners in Sales fix a common problem–youngish sales reps often struggle to relate to their customers and their challenges. Thus the teaching of the “French accent.” You may not be able to teach your sales reps to speak fluent “customer” but you can help them with the nuances. And who better to share customer insights than the marketer who makes knowing the customer a top priority?

If you can’t relate to your buyer, your close rates will suck. Period.

There’s a lot more to this story, some of which I can cover in this post. Close rates are abysmal for a combination of reasons. The main question here is what can a CMO do about it? Regular readers of my Saturday editorials won’t be surprised that I suggest starting at the strategic level.

Building a Differentiated Brand to Close More Deals

A differentiated brand makes the buying decision easier.

And a better-known brand is almost always easier to sell. Omar Akhtar, founder of Benchmarker, and former Altimeter analyst, has done extensive research on this point. He notes in their Benchmarker 2024 B2B SaaS Benchmarks Study, “Companies who spend less than 10% of their revenue on marketing have worse conversion rates across every stage of the marketing funnel.”

Final Thoughts

CMOs know they need to help salespeople in all the ways they can. Their jobs depend on it. Teaching salespeople the nuances of the customer is an unquestionably worthy pursuit. But that’s just the crust of the baguette, n’est pas?

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 417: Marketing is Not a Gumball Machine

Does your marketing strategy rely on short-term fixes and MQL targets? This episode will show you why it’s time to return to a deeper, more sustainable approach. Drew Neisser sits down with Jon Miller to tackle the tough questions, like whether the traditional marketing playbook is broken—and how CMOs can fix it.

Jon shares actionable insights on:

• Revisiting the Fundamentals: Why product-market fit, positioning, and reputation are more important than ever for marketing success
• Doing Right by the Customer: How focusing on short-term results can undermine the customer experience and damage long-term growth   
• Embracing AI for the Long Haul: Why CMOs need to prepare for AI’s lasting impact (beyond content creation) to stay competitive

If you’re ready to move beyond outdated tactics and rethink your approach to marketing, this episode offers practical strategies for success. Tune in!

What You’ll Learn

• How B2B marketing has become “broken”
• The future of AI and email marketing
• How to rethink your marketing playbook

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“Our CFO just wants to see spreadsheets,” shared an advice-seeking CMO from a $135mil SaaS company. Other Huddlers expressed similar sentiments about their CFOs, noting “You’ve got to translate marketing into language finance can understand.” Yes. But. And.

Yes:

• CMOs need to articulate how the totality of marketing connects to revenue.
• CMOs need to show that data helps inform their decisions.
• CMOs need to share simple dashboards that track agreed-upon KPIs.

But:

• If CMOs only show spreadsheets to their CFO they will end up over-investing in short-term activities (as has happened in the last few years).
• If CMOs just focus on the data they will mislead their CFOs to believe that every dollar invested can be directly connected to revenue (as Jon Miller says, “Marketing is not a gumball machine”).
• If CMOs only talk numbers they risk being seen as tacticians, not strategic thinkers.

And:

• Every conversation with your CFO is an opportunity to demonstrate business acumen (not just marketing acumen).
• Every conversation with your CFO is an opportunity to partner, share hypotheses, and plan experiments.
• Every conversation with your CFO is an opportunity to help lead your company, reinforcing the importance of building sustainable differentiation.

Leaders lead.

For CMOs, that means not going into your CFO’s office begging for handouts. In theory, you are peers in the C-suite. You are co-contributors to the company’s success. You both bring expertise and blind spots. While it might be unreasonable to expect a CFO to understand the nuances of marketing, you can educate them about how great brands are built. You can explain how a better reputation impacts everything from click-through rates on Google ads to close rates on enterprise deals to pricing power. This will take time. Maybe years!

Reputations aren’t built in a day.

Kay Moffitt, CMO of Amplify, an EdTech company, explained on a recent CMO Huddles Studio episode that their podcast is having a material impact on their business. But all the evidence is anecdotal. Like the CEO hearing “nice things” about it from customers. Like the salespeople saying, “XYZ prospect talked about our podcast!” Some CMOs call this “anecdata” since they are hard to quantify but highly believable examples of reputation growth. Importantly, the podcast has been running for more than 6 years and was a slow build.

Marketing is an investment not an expense.

Imagine your joy when your CFO believes this too. And like the great investor Peter Lynch (long-time manager of Magellan Fund), you don’t expect a 10X return on every pick, and certainly not in Year 1. In fact, for Lynch, the goal was one “10-bagger” out of 7 investments every 5-7 years. Lynch ran the fund for 13 years and averaged a 29.2% annual return, more than 2x the S&P 500.

Written by Drew Neisser

Listen Here | From Renegade Marketers Unite, Episode 416: Demand Gen Machine: Driving Growth with Precision

What does it take to build a demand gen machine that not only delivers leads but drives real, measurable business impact? In this episode, host Drew Neisser is joined by Michael Callahan (Salt Security), James B. Stanton (CuraLinc Healthcare), and Jeff Morgan (Elements) to discuss how they’ve built scalable, high-performing demand gen engines.

From refining incentive strategies to focusing on ideal customer profiles (ICP), these seasoned marketers share practical tips on boosting conversion rates and maximizing ROI in B2B marketing. Learn how to align sales and marketing teams, leverage AI and automation tools, and avoid common pitfalls that can derail even the best demand gen strategies.

Key Discussion Points:

• How to fine-tune incentives to attract the right prospects
• Why narrowing your ICP can boost conversions and drive more qualified leads
• The power of partnerships in driving down customer acquisition costs
• How AI tools are enhancing marketing efficiency and delivering better insights
  
• Real-world examples of successful (and not-so-successful) demand gen campaigns
  

Tune in to learn the strategies that top B2B marketers use to build demand gen machines that deliver lasting results. 

For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcast/

“Our new CEO doesn’t believe in marketing,” shared a shaken CMO from a $250mm professional services firm. This was not a whine. It was a request for help. Then other CMOs in the huddle jumped in, sharing how they’ve dealt with similar cases of ignorance.

How is it possible that in 2024 a CEO could be this doltish?

Three months ago when I suggested that this problem could only happen in B2B-land, a few B2C CMOs challenged me. They said, “You’d be surprised, it seems to be an epidemic.” Perhaps, but it is impossible to imagine the new CEO of P&G, PepsiCo, or Geico saying, “I don’t believe in marketing!” They’d be shown the exit faster than you can say, “Aflac.”

In B2B, the cause of CEO marketing myopia is easy to diagnose. That doesn’t make it acceptable.

More than 80% of B2B CEOs have NO EXPERIENCE as marketing practitioners. None. Zilch. Nada. If you’ve never uncovered the insight that led to the differentiating brand idea, never built an effective marketing plan, or never set up a demand-generating machine, you can neither appreciate the challenge nor the rewards of getting these things right.

Great leaders are infinitely curious. Even if they haven’t performed a role, their curiosity fills their blind spots.

Back to the situation at hand. What could our beleaguered CMO do to address their doltish CEO? Try these.

Enlist Support

Surround the CEO with marketing believers. Hopefully, your CRO recognizes how your partnership drives high-quality opportunities into and through the pipeline. If not, fix that. Jointly presenting past performance and near-term plans with your CRO shows solidarity. HR can share how the lack of awareness hurts recruiting. Seek a marketing advocate on the board or with your CFO.

Find Common Ground

Every CEO wants to acquire and retain customers. Start by reviewing the CEO's vision and understanding their priorities. If they say, “I want the business to grow xx%,” agree with the challenge but ask, “How do you see us getting there?” Find a non-confrontational way to say “Growth is not a strategy!” and talk about real GTM strategies.

Show Them the Money

Ideally, your new CEO will appreciate your data especially if you put it in terms they can understand. They want growth. You can break down path sources of growth including new customers, renewals, upsells, cross-sells, and partnerships. You can show them a typical new customer journey, the myriad of touchpoints, and how trust is built throughout the process.

Share Your Vision

Great businesses are almost always great brands. They build enormous trust over time. They remove the friction from both the buying process and the customer experience. They take care of their customers. They inspire employees. They are differentiated from top to bottom. The CEOs who build and run those companies are admired and even revered. Share that.

Final Thoughts

Finally, prepare for the worst by growing your network and building your personal brand.

Written by Drew Neisser